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The Frozen Files--

A Classical SuperHumanist cryonicsx blog by "PhilOssifur" [Summer 2007]
Email philossifur@yahoo.com
Latest entries listed at very bottom of page-- scroll down to end.
Fall 2007 continuation at the following blog... under 'cryonics-- SA-- [+]

Thursday, August 16, 2007

I'm holding Ben Best in contempt of the cryonics community for this post.

Ben Best (Login Benbest_)
Veteran Member

I believe significant misinformation has been disseminated
about my role and the role of Suspended Animation in the
treatment of the 81st patient of the Cryonics Institute (CI).

http://www.cryonics.org/reports/CI81.html

I want to correct some of this misinformation.

I lost my appetite for chat groups well over a decade
ago when I realized how much time I could waste trying to
answer accusations.
And that having answered some accusations
can lend support to the idea that not answering subsequent
accusations is a tacit admission of their truth. Some people
equate the search for truth with the search for dirt
and will
only believe what appears to be evidence of deception, low motives
or incompetence. Things have become even more complicated for
me now that I find it so difficult to speak for myself rather
than for an organization
-- having so many people trying to
censor me or put words in my mouth. With all these disclaimers,
I do know that sincere people read forums and that an
occasional attempt to correct misconceptions can be of great
value. I want to make an attempt at clarification while
disclaiming that the absence of further postings in reply
to subsequent accusations is an admission of guilt.

My comment-- Bullshit. There should be NO difference between speaking for himself and CI .

The first issue I would like to address is the question
of whether the 81st patient received better care WITH
Suspended Animation (SA) than he would have received
WITHOUT SA. Note that this question is distinct from
the question of whether SA could be better than it is
or whether SA would have deployed more resources if the
patient had been fully funded.

BULLSHIT-- the ostensible difference was no standby-- for the price reduction-- NOT more or less "RESOURCES" if the patient were "fully funded"

It is also distinct from
the question of how much medical training or what medical
credentials SA staff require to deliver basic cryonics
cool-down, CPS and related support.

BULLSHIT-- Operating the perfusion equipment REQUIRES trained personnel. Maxim will with this point soon... watch out.

By the use of an ice bath, CardioPulmonary Support (CPS)
and an ATP the patient was cooled to below 10oC in about half
the time such cooling could have been achieved by a funeral
director using ice bags.

BULLSHIT-- the comparison with ice bags is a FALSE COMPARISON. At minimum, should be compared to ice slurry as described on CI's own site

Moreover, CPS during the cooling period
meant that tissues could remain viable in a way that would
not have been possible without CPS. Administration of
streptokinase, vasopressin and antioxidants in addition
to the usual heparin eliminated clots, increased
circulatory capacity and reduced oxidative damage. Blood
replacement with organ preservation solution in a timely
manner avoided reperfusion injury and reduced the cold
ischemic damage the patient would have suffered during
shipment in ice to CI's Michigan funeral home where
vitrification perfusion was performed.

I have studied and written considerably on the subject of
ischemic damage to cryonics patients as, for example, in:

http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/ischemia.html

http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/IR_Damage.html

For those who would trivialize the benefits of rapid
cooling achieved by the SA team I quote from the
cooling section of the latter article:

************** BEGIN QUOTE **********************************
Cooling of a cryonics patient with ice immediately following

BULLSHIT-- has nothing to do with the contentious issues.

Criticisms of the medical qualifications of the SA team
are beside the point of what they achieved.

BULLSHIT-- what did they achieve?

Having paid
personnel with equipment and a willingness to maintain CPS
(manually, if necessary) during cooling is of enormous
value. Claims that the patient was the subject of
experimental procedures without foreseeable benefit are
similarly without merit. The patient received time-tested
cryonics protocols which had substantial measurable benefit
over what he would have received had SA not been present.

BULLSHIT-- CI can't do manual CPS?

Accusations have been made that the patient did not want
SA treatment, that I consciously opposed the patient's
wishes and that I subjected the patient's son to high-pressure
sales tactics. Included in these accusations is the presumption
that I had virtually no interest in the patient's well-being and
that I was almost entirely motivated by my desire to promote SA.
(Explanations given for my ultimate motives for wanting to
promote SA are more murky.)

BULLSHIT-- It's not "murky"-- This was a cherry picked case and it was handed over to SA for "win win" reasons. What is murky is what SA "wins".

I was aware that the patient had attended the SA conference
in May with his son. I had also been told by CI facilities
manager Andy Zawacki that the patient had not been so impressed
with what he saw at SA. I do not believe that the latter is
the same as saying that the patient would not want SA service
at any price.

BULLSHIT-- What part of "no" does Ben not understand? The "N" or the "O"??? Is that too long a word for him? It depends on the precise meaning of "no", I guess. Check websters for girls' defintion of one of the hundred meanings of "no".

It is false that I would have opposed the
patient's wishes if I believed he would not want their
services at any price.

BULLSHIT-- this entire handover revolves, then, around what Ben Best believes would have been the situation if the situation had been different-- in other words pure speculation-- guesswork-- motivated by a hidden factor that's EASY to hide?--

Knowing that the son had attended the SA conference with
his father I felt that he could appreciate the value of what
SA had to offer. I also believe that no one could better
estimate what the patient might want from SA than his son,
who had spent an entire weekend with his father seeing the
SA conference and touring the SA facilities.

Seeing a possible opportunity which I believed could be
of benefit to both SA and the patient (a win-win situation)
-- and believing that the extra funds were available -- I
spoke to Saul Kent and the son about the possibility of SA
taking the case for $8,000.

BULLSHIT-- the SA charge is $30,000 so you're saying the no-standby allowed $22,000 to be deducted ?

With the moment of deanimation
somewhat predictable upon removal of the ventilator there
would be no need for costly standby. I do not remember any
opposition from the son when I made the proposal to him.
How can anyone claim or know that I subjected the son to a
high-pressure sales pitch when only the son and I were on
the telephone? If the son had been pressured he would be
expected to express doubts and remorse afterwards. On the
contrary, he expressed great satisfaction with the services
SA provided for his father. Moreover, I do not believe the
patient's son would have allowed his father to receive SA
services if he had any indication that his father would have
been opposed. And I believe that the patient's son was in
a far better position to know what his father would have
wanted concerning SA services than anyone else.

BULLSHIT-- Ben previously wrote that only the patient knew why he didn't sign up for SA... What DOES the son say-- that C81 WANTED SA but did NOT sign up becuase it was too much money--- $30K?

The agreement between CI and SA for this case
was an "ad hoc" agreement, so the usual contractual
terms did not apply.

BULLSHIT-- ALL CI members should have that ability to get an ad hoc contract then. Let's sign them all up

I understand that there are people who would love to see
SA destroyed.

BULLSHIT-- attribution of false motive.We just want the truth.

But I also believe that there are critics of
SA who would like to see SA improved. I am not in a position
to evaluate all of the criticisms. I hope that the criticisms
have a constructive result. But I do believe that to claim
that SA cannot offer great benefit at present -- and did not
give great benefit to CI's 81st patient -- is false. It is
true that CI and SA websites have have not been up-to-date.
Previous announcements are historical records which should
not be rewritten, but I have attempted to make an update
with a new announcement at:

http://www.cryonics.org/SA/SA_CI_Announcement.html

and am open to suggestions for further corrections.

BULLSHIT-- he's not open at all-- not even with the CI board who he does not appear to have consulted on this-- and who he may be in trouble with right now-- causing major tension in the CI community-- I would guess-- He appears to have UNILATERALLY turned C81 over to Saul Kent who now cherry picks CI cases-- just like he cherry picked TW at Alcor-- and will likely continue to try to cherry pick. Now he appeasr to me to be running damage control, spin and re-direction of attention-- and then saying he's opting out of further dicussions-- falsly labelling the questions and the speculation as "dirt" that he won't descent to. I therefore hold Ben Best in comptempt of the cryonics community at large. He even admitted that his personal position is different from the CI position-- so right there-- he's guilty as charged.

-- Ben Best, President, Cryonics Institute

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

Phil,

You keep repeating over and over again that this CI case was "handed over" to SA. That is just incorrect. CI ***DOES NOT*** PROVIDE STANDBY AND STABILIZATION. So CI just did what they always do; receive the patient, do cryoprotection and store in LN2. SA's services were added to CI's normal procedures.

Rick Potvin said...

I think we have to say that if there's no standby and stabilization immediately upon legal death, it's substandard cryonics, if can be called cryonics at all.

At what point does freezing a dead body become 'not cryonics"? Just as the definition of death keeps shifting due to technology, so too, the definition of cryonics is going to have to shift as well. I guess I'm used to the Alcor position on this.

In this sense, CI has about 16 members-- who have signed up for SA's "extra services". This notion that SA standby and stabilization is "extra" reminds me of the idea of a car salesman telling you, once the deal is closed, that the Wheels themselves are "extra".

The problem is that the cryonics industry has never made clear what standards have to be met to be called "cryonics". Obviously, if C81 had an opportunity to sign up with SA and chose NOT to-- that that was obviously rediculous. It MUST have been the price then.

What is CI doing "vitification" for when they don't even have ANY standby/stabilize capabilities? THAT would seem to be the weak link in the chain.

I'm surprised that CI can't even standby or stabilization for a member just 200 mi out from their office -- whose deanimation was controlled by advance decision.

If CI can perfuse with cryoprotectant, why can't they do initial blood washout and organ preservation? And have they ever been interested in even trying to look into using an ATP-- for that-- at least for local jobs? It seems to me that they've never expressed even a desire to look into it-- and into getting a van and few people together.

People drive around doing nothing in huge SUV's these days. No CI member owns an SUV?-- No CI member can rent a U-truck with a liftgate and learn to run an ATP?

By 2007 standards, CI should not be allowed to call what they do "cryonics" because it's an INSULT to Alcor who is struggling to do these things. CI members are signed up for "post-mortem freezing" with "peudo-cryonics" treatmetn.

Most people will laugh at that distinction because most people don't care about cryonics to begin with but when you understand cryonics-- and how the standard has to match the current day abilities of what is possible, then we have no choice but to now write off CI as a "pseudo-cryonics" outfit.

CI's members only chance now-- is to get that SA Inc rider-- asap... Unless a CI member is signed up with SA, it's not "real cryonics-- for 2007"... or even "1972, perhaps".

We talk about Nelson in cryonics history quite a bit-- well Ettinger was involved with Nelson at the beginning in the 1960's-- Ettinger was even involved in the Bedford case-- I think it was Ettinger who Bedford first contacted-- and the Ettinger called Nelson at that time.

So from there, to today-- you have virtually no progress in Ettinger's cryonics organizaiton. The entire history of Ettinger's effort has been bogus.

To prove it-- let's expose the fact that Ettinger himself has an SA contract-- with standby. I'll bet you he does. Because he knows he hasn't been doing real cryonics.

The curious thing to me is why Ben Best would join CI-- he would have been better off in Toronto-- with the Meet up group there focused on emergency cryonics rescue-- the weak point in CI's chain.

The least CI could have done over the years is invitie retired members to live in a community where there would be quick treatment more likely on hand. They never even did that.

That's the way I see it. Ben Best was into Arctic burial for a long time-- so it's understandable why he'd be heading up CI now. The thing is that the public confuses what CI does with what Alcor does-- fake cryonics is being compared to real cryonics.

CI's new count for "fully signed up" HAS to include standby/stabilization-- and therefore is 16 now-- down from 200.

Anonymous said...

You sure have a lot of opinions about an organization you obviously know almost nothing about (CI). Apart from most of your comments about Best's post being merely nitpicky, some of the stuff you state about CI is totally incorrect.

A glaring example is 16 members signed up with SA. Bother sometime, will you, to simply read the monthly updated front page of CI's website? That's www.cryonics.org. Here is what it says this month: "Funded CI Members with Suspended Animation Contracts: 34 "

Probably the most important fact you are missing is that apart from what the other anonymous up there said, "CI ***DOES NOT*** PROVIDE STANDBY AND STABILIZATION", which is true, most CI members do not go without stabilization at a pre-arranged funeral home, using solutions provided by and/or required by CI, before they are transported to Michigan for cryoprotectant perfusion and vitrification. Some members even arrange standbys with local resources such as trained funeral directors. And, of course, 34 of them now and growing, depend on SA, and even for that there is always the requirement for pronouncement of death by whoever legally qualifies to do that, and some funeral director services are often required by law, SA or not.

You have a history, "Phil", of being irrationally opposed to CI. Your analysis of Best's report just shows more of that.

Rick Potvin said...

34 CI members with SA contracts-- well that’s good-- I’m glad I was wrong.... but at some point I WAS right-- becuase you have to go through 16 to GET to 34.... I’m just not THAT up to date... So CI's "fully signed up members" in terms of 2007 standards is 34-- now let's look at what you said about the real-world protocol vs. what the CI website says...

"most CI members do not go without stabilization at a pre-arranged funeral home, using solutions provided by and/or required by CI, before they are transported to Michigan for cryoprotectant perfusion and vitrification."

Ok but the FIRST pefusion is the washout, the initial cooling and the organ preservation fluid that's been around at least since 1984. You say the "solutions" are provided/requ'd by CI but don't have the NAME of those solutions on the tip of your tongue. Why not? Do you even know what the "solutions" are? Are they perfused into the patient by the funeral director?

And why isn’t that stated on the website-- where we expect there to be an accurate rendition of reality? Your statement just now is WAY more accurate than the CI website.

I'll just ignore your attricutions of false motives to me. That's standard ad hominem attacks-- par for the course in this businss apparnetly.

The key item I'm zeroing in on is the SA treatment of C81 with the ATP kit-- that is a criticla link in the cryonics chain of events... and even IF a CI member is in the hands of a funeral director-- it's nevertheless true that CI CAN"T EVEN HANDLE a local case-- like C81 in a 200 mi zone-- that that patient is DEAD first-- THEN the mortician comes after the fact-- THEN take the patient to the morturary-- THEN does the washout and solutions-- with organ preservative or not?-- you don't say--

Essentially CI's protocol is so far behind in terms of what today's standards are that it cannot be considered cryonics-- your update to my info notwithstanding. SOMEBODY has to point to this and shout!!

You guys (I'm assuming you're a CI person) have never even RENTED A VAN to drive out even 5 miles-- to a member-- you've never even tried!! As far as local funeral directors-- was there even any pressure PUT on a funeral director to make a SPEEDY trip out to the deceased? Maybe-- there has been and I haven't read the CI reports in that detail-- but can YOU tell me? and refer me to a CI report that shows that a mortician was told to GET OUT THE MEMBER ON THE DOUBLE??

Is the morticians van, in essence, the CI- emergency cryonics van? HAs any mortician been trained on a portable perfusion kit? HAs any mortiican EVEN EXPRESSED A PASSING INTEREST in the "hobby" of a portable perfusion kit? I think not.

You tell me I know nothing of CI. I'll tell what I know. I know enough to ask good questions. And THAT is a good question pal. So don't mock me and MY base of knowledge. Just cough up some answers and show me what YOU know.

Pfffft. (waving you off).

Your idea that CI members are better prepared than what the CI webstie protocol says and-- awhile ago that CI members are better funded than what the actual figures say-- that's all very questionable.... most of CI's cases, as far as I'm reading-- are lousy. They're not members and they're not subjected to the protocol. IT would take some work to filter out the crap from the actual cryonics cases on the CI site.

I'm not attacking CI-- I'm attacking what I consider to be problems. They just happen to be ensconsed in the CI situation. Your attribution of false motives to me is unwarrented, laughable and if I had your IP I'd ban it for that. I really would. That was uncalled for. I do NOT have a history of attacking CI... you're view is DISTORTED beyond belief. Your answer in this blog is INSUFFICIENT.

Nice try there, no cigar. Get lost.

Anonymous said...

So do you want me to "get lost" or do you want the information on what medications and protocols CI recommends and to some extent provides to its cooperating funeral directors? You can't have both. You're a moron, "Phil".

But I will say one more thing here. If you were living in, say, Missoula Montana, and wanted cryonic stabilization before transport to your provider, whether it be Alcor, CI, whomever, which would you prefer to provide it: (1) A team that flies in from some remote location thousands of miles away and is assembled at the last minute from whoever is available at the time, qualifications dubious, and hopefully they will remember all the stuff they are supposed to bring, OR, (2) A local team (usually a funeral provider you have already groomed to know and be capable of what you want, with the help of your cryo organization) who is there already, on the spot, when you need them to be?

The latter type of arrangements works well for many people who are fixed in some remote spot and unable to relocate near their primary cryo provider. How well it works depends on how much time, effort and money one puts into their local mortician. BTW, this can also happen close to CI's HQ, if any CI member wants it to.

Don't bother replying; I will get lost as you said, and no longer read this thread of comments.

Rick Potvin said...

You're supporting the CI funeral mortician program without telling us that THAT program defaulted some time ago!

The CI site says so. FD pointed it out in CF this morning. THAT was a major blow to CI-- it seems to me.

The idea of a local mortician doing the initial work vs. a fly-in team-- doesn't work for 34 CI members who are paying for the (incompetent) SA fly-in team. Why not? Because maybe they know that that mortician based program has been destroyed and that an incompetently run SA is BETTER than a broken mortiican program.

The fact that you don't mention the loss of the mortician's power in a CI case bothers me a lot. That was a big deal. You're papering over it. I've never looked real hard at local morticians-- I've scanned funeral publications and have spoken to local funeral directors about cryonics-- they're a LONG way from Kansas, or Missouri-- in terms of cryonics, in general. A long way. You wrote

"How well it works depends on how much time, effort and money one puts into their local mortician. BTW, this can also happen close to CI's HQ, if any CI member wants it to. "

IF ANY CI MEMBER WANTS IT TO? Are you fucking crazy? You're not even half desirous of MAKING it work NEAR the CI lab? What the hell does that mean-- IF ANY CI MEMBERS WANTS IT TO... Right there-- you're guilty as charged for offering Pseudo cryonics. My latest blog post is titled "CI NEEDS SA".... you say you won't be back here to read this but you will be and you'll read my latest blog post to....

The ATTITUDE of someone like you who says "this can also happen close to CI's HQ, if any CI member wants it to" is astonishingly corrupt and daft in my opinion. If any Ci member wants it to-- It's not up to a MEMBER to provide his or her own cryonics service you moron. YOU are the moron-- and you get away with something like this---

Well it's all over for you and the rest of CI too anyway.... because REALITY is that the INCOMPENTLY run SA is BETTER at doing what you say a CI member can provide for themselves-- get a local funeral director...

and 34 CI members AGREE WITH ME-- so YOUR argument must be a problem to THEM. Don't talk to ME here about it-- go ask THEM what THEIR problem was with CI.

Whoever you are-- you're missing something-- maybe its conscience. When you say you provide a cryonics service, you have to do something active toward that. CI had the idea of using funeral directors for years-- but this is turning out to be substandard and should be examined more closely by the real cryonicists-- in detail-- because I think there are severe problems. You didn't mention the most severe problem. It's almost as though your'e a control agent-- in here-- a gatekeeper for CI--

The suspension of disbelief is all that's needed for some type of situation to exist-- and potential fun'l dir. participation helps readers and the public-- and ci members-- suspend their disbelief. However, as far as GENERALLY ACCEPTABLE CRYONICS STANDARDS go-- it seems to me that fun'l dir. prgram has not been cutting it.

This isn't to say that it can't cut it in the future-- but right now, 34 CI members have opted OUT of the CI fun'l dir program!!!-- and paid for it-- preferring the SA fly-in service.

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